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Thread: Sage EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle)

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    Senior Member Grunt Medic TXARNG's Avatar
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    Both the Army and the Marines have used different versions of the boat tailed hollow point bullet for sniping for many years, as it's more accurate - the M118 loading is issued in a box printed 'not for combat use' which is funny, since that has been widely ignored. The Sage stock has almost no counterbalance, as nearly all the weight is forward of the pistol grip. 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester are dimensionally the same - but the .308 is loaded to higher pressures, something to be aware of from a safety standpoint. Unfortunately, the fact that a piece of gear - even a weapons platform - is 'official issue' doesn't guarantee that it's the best available; witness the birth of the M16 and the torturous evolution of the M2 Bradley. Watch the movie 'Pentagon Wars' if you want to see just how out of control the acquisitions process is (and that concerns that same Bradley Fighting Vehicle). The following US Sniper weapons are chambered for the 7.62x51mm cartridge -


    - M21 sniper version of the M14 with suppressor and railed stock, as manufactured by Smith Enterprise



    - M25 sniper version of the M14


    - M24 bolt action sniper rifle (Army) - introduced for perceived accuracy advantage over the M21/M25 rifles

    - The M40A1 and M40 A3 Sniper rifles fielded by the USMC are based on the same Remington 700 action as the M24 above. As I am limited to 4 images per post I have chosen to reserve the pics for differing designs. Interestingly, some Marine snipers complain the M40A3 is too heavy for effective use



    - M110 Semiautomatic sniper system - note the detachable silencer and sniper night sight

    And there are others - but these are the most commonly encountered ones.
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    Default 22" Barrel M39 EMR

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post

    But it is a cool looking setup, I'll give you that. And that's a good looking website you've set up, Lester. Well done!
    Hey Grunt,

    Thanks for the thumbs up.

    I have another Sage M39 EMR Stock that is ready for for some action with 22" Criterion Medium weight barrel. I have not yet decided to what configuration I will do with her, but I am pretty sure a clone of the original set up of the USMC M39 EMR version pictured at my website. I am hoping I will be able to get her to my gunsmith by the end of this year.

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    Senior Member Grunt Medic TXARNG's Avatar
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    Lookie what was in the Stars and Stripes today...

    68W4P, 31B4P, 0341, 0844
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    "Even if you know that a certain illustration in an art book is from the Kama Sutra, don't point that out to your art history class. They will think you're a pervert." - seen at learnfrommyfail.com

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    Senior Member Exo1's Avatar
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    Hey Doc, word on the kate is that it is more accurate then the M21..... its not a knock on the M21, but the ranging is better on a kate. Barrel design is part of the reason so Im told..... The M14 as a Semi Auto was a great weapon and the M21 held the standard... Id feel comfortable with a kate in my closet... all I have in my closet at the moment is a copy of the Simpons... LOL...

    .308 is a a great round for sniping to 800m....The fact that everybody uses it is testament to its effecitiveness... The round is safe for sniping and the predictive drop rates are very consistant.. I read a great article with part of it focusing on cross wind effects on the 175g round verus 168g, the cross wind adjustments for a 175g grain round is considerably less then the 168g grain. Also, the inflight behavour (drop & cross wind adjustment to 800M) makes it a winner in my book. What do you mean by loaded under higher pressure?.... maybe the danger of loading it in an automatic 7.62mm weapon?.... would be a valid point?... Back to the .308... given the reliability of the round, would you molly coat the round past 600m?.... Theres not much noise about it on any of the sniper and gun sites....
    Last edited by Exo1; 05-01-2010 at 11:50 AM.
    Tenants of Bushido;

    ‘We should never obsess about if we are going to die, but instead focus on how we live as those whom live an honorable life will always die a glorious death.’

    Rectitude (義): Courage (勇氣): Benevolence (仁): Respect (禮 ): Honesty (誠): Honour (名誉): Loyalty (忠義)

    ...ergo veneratio est vires.

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    Senior Member Grunt Medic TXARNG's Avatar
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    EXO - this is not personal at all, but I disagree with you here. I only disagree on facts as I understand them - If I'm wrong tell me, and I will retract and correct any wrong information I put out, and apologize. That said -

    As best I can tell, 'Kate' as a nickname for a sniper rifle is a combination of a myth perpetrated by an episode of NCIS that aired last year and the fact that a National Guard shooter who runs a sniper web forum states he nicknamed his issued rifle 'Kate' and his civilian customized precision rifle 'Kate II'. See post at sniper central forums It has been shown that bolt-action rifles on average are more accurate than semiautomatic rifles - which is why the M700 based bolt (M24, M40 series) rifles replaced the M14 based semis (M21 and M25) as standard issue sniper arms. That may also have something to do with the fact that the bolt action rifles were built one at a time in a custom shop, while the M21s and M25s were assembled by various shops. It is interesting to note that certain units, feeling the 7.62 didn't have enough range, converted their M24 sniper rifles to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge.

    The M24 was originally designed for the .30-06 round like the M1903 and M-1D sniper rifles before it, with the intent of developing a high power .30-06 sniper round, but was changed to 7.62mm due to ammunition shortages. See history link at U.S. Army M24 Sniper Weapon System Once again, it isn't always the best weapon or round that gets adopted - but the one which meets procurement, contract, and maintenance life cycle needs - and only Remington came through with all of the above.

    Although very similar to the military 7.62x51mm NATO round, specifications for the .308 cartridge are not identical and there are special considerations that may apply when mixing one cartridge with differently chambered arms. Military ammunition is loaded to maximum average pressure 50,000 CUP (approximately 58,000 PSI). This standard is used to ensure better consistency round to round. It is proofed at 67,000 PSI. The ammunition can then be used in a wide variety of firearms with no ill effects. Commercial ammunition has a maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI. While not every manufacturer may load it to this level, this is the industry established maximum. The proof cartridge pressure is 83,000 to 89,000 PSI. Note the differences between the military test and operational standard vs the commercial one. See 7.62x51mm NATO or 308 Winchester? What's the Difference? for an in-depth discussion of the possible hazards of firing .308 in a rifle designed for 7.62, as well as the differences between military and commercial loading components -especially brass cases. When a case fails it can be dramatic, as evidenced by the nickname among reloaders for the phenomenon of KB, for 'Kaboom'!

    The reverse can be true as well - rifles that are chambered for .223 Remington should NOT have military 5.56mm ammunition fired through them. See http://www.saami.org/specifications_...mbinations.pdf Some manufacturer do make chambers that are safe for both loadings - but the shooter should make sure of this. For the longest time I thought it was ridiculous that civilian ranges enforced the wear of protective glasses while shooting, but the military did not. Now, fortunately, we've learned our lesson and we enforce this basic safety measure on military ranges.


    kaboom2..jpgkaboom008..jpgblowen20rifel2000&.jpg
    Kabooms above - AK, AR and antique. Let's be careful out there!
    68W4P, 31B4P, 0341, 0844
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    "Even if you know that a certain illustration in an art book is from the Kama Sutra, don't point that out to your art history class. They will think you're a pervert." - seen at learnfrommyfail.com

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    haha thats exactly what i thought of when i saw he called it Kate.. gotta love Gibbs

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    Senior Member Exo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post
    EXO - this is not personal at all, but I disagree with you here. I only disagree on facts as I understand them - If I'm wrong tell me, and I will retract and correct any wrong information I put out, and apologize. That said -
    No offence taken old boy... as Homer Simpson would say (and yes I do have the teeshirt) "Its all Good!"... Its refreshing to post with someone so knowledgable on weapons and ballestics... will post some ranging charts I found on the web for the .308 winchester.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post
    As best I can tell, 'Kate' as a nickname for a sniper rifle is a combination of a myth perpetrated by an episode of NCIS that aired last year and the fact that a National Guard shooter who runs a sniper web forum states he nicknamed his issued rifle 'Kate' and his civilian customized precision rifle 'Kate II'. See post at sniper central forums It has been shown that bolt-action rifles on average are more accurate than semiautomatic rifles - which is why the M700 based bolt (M24, M40 series) rifles replaced the M14 based semis (M21 and M25) as standard issue sniper arms. That may also have something to do with the fact that the bolt action rifles were built one at a time in a custom shop, while the M21s and M25s were assembled by various shops. It is interesting to note that certain units, feeling the 7.62 didn't have enough range, converted their M24 sniper rifles to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge.
    The M24 has a huge advantage at distance over the M21, which is the recoil mecanism.... the action of an automatically reloading action detracts ever so slightly from operator accuracy at range. Heres a nice summary I found online of the M24 as below;

    US Army M24 (USA)

    Caliber: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 win)
    Operation: Bolt Action
    Feed: 5-Round internal magazine
    Weight: 5.49 kg empty without telescope
    Length: 1092mm
    Sights: 10x42 Leupold Ultra M3A telescope sight (Mil-Dots), plus detachable emergency iron sights.
    Barrel: 610mm.
    Stock: HS Precision - adjustable length.
    Max Effective Range: 800 meters
    Expected Accuracy: 1 MOA with M118 (Ammo is limiting factor)


    By the mid-1980s, the US Army's M21 Sniper Rifles, built on the M14 actions, were wearing out, and suitable replacement parts were scarce. The new wworld's political situation moved the focus of the NATO and the US Army troubles from the Europe to the Middle West. The flat, open desert terrains produced the need for the rifle with effective range ot to 1000 meters. The US Army set the specifications for bolt-action, stainless steel barrel rifle with Kevlar-graphite stock. After final shoot-off between Steyr SSG rifle and Remington model 700BDL, the latest was standartized in 1987 as a US Army's Model 24 sniper rifle. The M24 has a 24" (609mm) stainless-steel barrel, with a bore specially cut for the M118 7.62mm NATO Match Grade ammunition. The barrel was rifled with a special Remington- developed rifling, called 5R. It had five lands and grooves that make one turn in 11 1/4" (286mm), and the edges of the lands were sligthly rounded to reduce friction. The stock was a composite of Kevlar and graphite. The buttplate is ajustable through a range of 2.7" (69mm) to accomodate all shooters. The Leupold-Stewens M3 Ultra telescopic sight is a fixed 10X scope. It has range-finding reticle and built-in compensator for bullet drop.

    As for the Kate, LOL... Im a HUGE fan of NCIS.. you cought me there... I find the sarcasm of the show addictive.... Awesome stuff.... However "Kate" Sniper rifles do exist one of which is the below Bravo 51... Tactical Operations - Bravo 51

    THe Bravo 51 is preferred by USMC snipers I believe... maybe wrong, but from the review above, its seems to be a fine weapon... That said, I still have to stand for the M24, its a piece of reliable history and should not be forgotton in all her glory...

    m24army3.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post
    The M24 was originally designed for the .30-06 round like the M1903 and M-1D sniper rifles before it, with the intent of developing a high power .30-06 sniper round, but was changed to 7.62mm due to ammunition shortages. See history link at U.S. Army M24 Sniper Weapon System Once again, it isn't always the best weapon or round that gets adopted - but the one which meets procurement, contract, and maintenance life cycle needs - and only Remington came through with all of the above.
    From what I hear the Bravo 51 does exceed the M24 on such areas....

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post
    Although very similar to the military 7.62x51mm NATO round, specifications for the .308 cartridge are not identical and there are special considerations that may apply when mixing one cartridge with differently chambered arms. Military ammunition is loaded to maximum average pressure 50,000 CUP (approximately 58,000 PSI). This standard is used to ensure better consistency round to round. It is proofed at 67,000 PSI. The ammunition can then be used in a wide variety of firearms with no ill effects. Commercial ammunition has a maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI. While not every manufacturer may load it to this level, this is the industry established maximum. The proof cartridge pressure is 83,000 to 89,000 PSI. Note the differences between the military test and operational standard vs the commercial one. See 7.62x51mm NATO or 308 Winchester? What's the Difference? for an in-depth discussion of the possible hazards of firing .308 in a rifle designed for 7.62, as well as the differences between military and commercial loading components -especially brass cases. When a case fails it can be dramatic, as evidenced by the nickname among reloaders for the phenomenon of KB, for 'Kaboom'!
    I didnt know the PSI specs for the manufacture of the round, but round callalure misfits especially to can cause stoppages and with higher pressure rounds accidents of the kaboom catagory you describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt Medic TXARNG View Post
    The reverse can be true as well - rifles that are chambered for .223 Remington should NOT have military 5.56mm ammunition fired through them. See http://www.saami.org/specifications_...mbinations.pdf Some manufacturer do make chambers that are safe for both loadings - but the shooter should make sure of this. For the longest time I thought it was ridiculous that civilian ranges enforced the wear of protective glasses while shooting, but the military did not. Now, fortunately, we've learned our lesson and we enforce this basic safety measure on military ranges.


    Attachment 361Attachment 362Attachment 363
    Kabooms above - AK, AR and antique. Let's be careful out there!
    Agreed... I would also state as an opinion that its more likely to have an accident on a malfitting round to a semi auto then a bolt action rifle due to the recoil and reloading forces of the weapon. However, as a general principal one should not use ammo that is not tailored for the weapon on safety grounds alone... For those whom need to, they should know their stuff and not guess.. cos with these rounds, you can get dead real quick if you are careless or assume to act instead of knowing to act..
    Tenants of Bushido;

    ‘We should never obsess about if we are going to die, but instead focus on how we live as those whom live an honorable life will always die a glorious death.’

    Rectitude (義): Courage (勇氣): Benevolence (仁): Respect (禮 ): Honesty (誠): Honour (名誉): Loyalty (忠義)

    ...ergo veneratio est vires.

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    Senior Member Exo1's Avatar
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    Default .308 Winchester

    Hey Doc... whilst Im never was a sniper I do have a keen interest in yourself in weapons and had a consistant first class shot through and after training.... On the .308 drop tragectory, energy displacemnet and windage, heres some cool tables on the link comparing the grains....

    M118 = M118 Special Ball - 173gr FMJ-BT (2550fps)
    M118LR = M118LR Special Ball - 175gr HPBT (2580fps)
    F-175gr = Federal Gold Medal Match .308 175gr HPBT (2600fps)
    F-168gr = Federal Gold Medal Match .308 168gr HPBT (2600fps)

    308 Winchester for Sniping


    Pritty cool to get onto the range and start testing them... yep indeedie.... the .308 is a good round for sure... heres some pics on the comparision... I note one of them developed for going through windows without deflection....

    .308 Rounds
    Attached Images
    Last edited by Exo1; 05-02-2010 at 05:20 AM.
    Tenants of Bushido;

    ‘We should never obsess about if we are going to die, but instead focus on how we live as those whom live an honorable life will always die a glorious death.’

    Rectitude (義): Courage (勇氣): Benevolence (仁): Respect (禮 ): Honesty (誠): Honour (名誉): Loyalty (忠義)

    ...ergo veneratio est vires.

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    Cool stuff! Thanxs guys. It's been very informative..
    Congratulations Night, Welcome to the team and back into the game, different department, agency, the same game. You'll roll over your days and be golden. Welcome back to the continental breakfast highway, lol. - Del The S**t.

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    Agreed, Night! I'm actually learning something. The one thing I never got into too much was ballistics. I used what I was isuued but then again I was not a sniper. I qualified "Expert" on every weapon I was authorized to use, though, all with issue ammo & weapons. If a shooter is ever a good buddy with the Armorer you could have a really good fine tuned weapon. I was & I did, even the .45 1911A1.

    Thanks Doc & Exo on your explanations!
    Proud Dad of a US Army Airborne Ranger SFC
    Retired US Army 1SG/MSG, Airborne Infantry, G-3, Instructor
    Former USN - Submarines, USS Chopper (SS 342) & Navy Diver, UDT 21
    I was a Soldier. I am a Soldier. I will always be a Soldier.

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