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Thread: Need Help Dealing With PT Failures

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    Angry ...................

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    Last edited by KnifeEdge; 12-21-2012 at 03:01 PM.

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    Senior Member Nightflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeEdge View Post
    Currently I am in the Army Reserves. Unfortunately, my unit lives up to the typical lower standards that seem to surround many National Guard and reserves units (lots of fat bodies, low drive and all around shit bags). In the past we (sergeants within the platoons) have recommended longtime PT failures for separation only to be turned back by our CO (We are constantly told itís a numbers thing/ Theyíd rather keep their numbers up than push people out). Seems like in the reserves, the only tool we have are counseling statements and honestly that doesnít get us anywhere. I feel like we NCOs have tried everything from bringing pressure down on them, to basically holding their hands to push them along. Does anyone have any ideas, tips, help on what more we can do?
    First off, Sergeant, and let me be very clear, I am and was and always will be proud of being a Soldier in the Army Guard, got it? now that we understand each other, I was 300% PT champion. You should post a PT score card in the shop for all to see, Start by doing PT every other weekend on free time. Start by showing some pride in you're Soldiers. reward the Soldiers who make an effort to improve, and have the weaker Soldiers workout with you're champions.Form a squad of champions to work with each other as a team. Run cadence? make it fun and make it hard at the same time. Soldiers are only as good as their Leadership, attitude starts at the top and works it's way down the chain. Good day.

    Stay Proud, Stay Army, Stay Squared away .
    Congratulations Night, Welcome to the team and back into the game, different department, agency, the same game. You'll roll over your days and be golden. Welcome back to the continental breakfast highway, lol. - Del The S**t.

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    They don't comply with Army standards? They need to be kicked the f@#$ out. Your CO is a failure. This is why no one takes the Reserves seriously. Laziness. "Numbers"... I'm sure there's an inspector general that you can speak to or someone of the sorts... You posting this thread shows that you care but are obviously rendered powerless by the lack of righteousness going down in your unit. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to keep your Soldiers in line if you rarely see them...

    One of your duties as an NCO: Ensuring that Soldiers meet the Army physical fitness, appearance and weight standards IAW AR 670-1 and 600-9

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    Senior Member Nightflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeEdge View Post
    I am definitely not trying to say that everyone is a "fat body" or not squared away (I don't think my original post came close to saying that). You have great ideas and I want to pass around ideas to help better my unit and others who see these posts. Your ideas:

    - Posting PT Cards: Tried that before and had an issue with the CO because of privacy concerns (couldn't continue that).

    - Working out Together: I have been working on putting together addresses and maps of where soldiers live so that they might get together to work out as a group. I myself am in a different state than the rest of my soldiers so distance doesn't allow me or many of my PT studs to workout with them.

    - Running Cadence: When we do have PT at drill, we implement that into our runs but we run into the same problem I would imagine all Guard and Reserve units face, lots of other training to do and PT takes a backseat (most PT should be done on the soldiers time and online training always seems to be time sensitive)

    - Showing Pride in My Soldiers: I don't take what you said personally (you don't know me and it's hard to understand what a person only types out) but I am very proud of my soldiers and most of my guys are SQUARED AWAY. But I am one to never rest on my laurels and I don't expect my soldiers to either. Me and the other NCOs go above and beyond to care for our guys and after receiving several awards and multiple news article write ups, we are looking to achieve the next, biggest and best.

    - Rewards: While I am pretty ole school and don't think people need to be rewarded for doing their job, I understand the majority of my generation are a "ME" generation and need the extra incentive. We have discussed giving out prizes for the top 5 scores but we have to come up with funds them for the prizes (especially right now, that's hard to do these days). We do and have been putting out positive counseling statements for those who pass or are making progress.

    - "Soldiers Are Only As Good As Their Leadership": I get that and completely agree, itís a two way street (vice versa: Leadership is only as good as their subordinates). Looking at where we have come from in the last 3rys Iíve been with the unit, we are far beyond where we use to be. But again, I am not one to settle and expect more out of myself and my soldiers.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Changes I have implemented to help further my Platoon:

    - Facebook: Everyone now a day is on it and even when a phone goes down, it seems that people always check their Facebook. We created a Platoon page to keep soldiers updates on current events, put out information, load information and materials so everyone can access them, keep track of soldiers posts to catch any leading information on their mental status (breakups, marriage issues, depression).

    - National and Local Resources: I have compiled resource information close to my soldiers HOR and also nationwide resources (i.e. - Gyms, Clinics, Hospitals, Vet Center, General Phone Numbers...). In doing so, I try to take out the guess work and excuses for my soldiers and their families to not help themselves.

    - Frequent Calls: My unit had issues with only following up with soldiers only when an issue has already arisen. I decided we needed to catch the issues before they became issues. We call several times throughout the month and take brief notes on the soldierís general attitudes (i.e. - do they seem depressed, are they having relationship issues, are they having money issues...) so that we have a record on each and can, over time, look at trends.

    So... With all that said, I hope anyone reading this will come to the conclusion I am not a POS NCO. I do take care of my soldiers and will continue to, especially after hours... But, back to my original post, what more is there left for us to do because when it comes to the Army regs, we seem to always have our hands tied because of Higher and needing to keep numbers...
    Ok, we understand each other perfectly, thank you. MJAE, makes a great point, try telling you're Soldiers this, the looming budget cuts are coming, if they don't get it in gear hard, there's a good chance their little @sses might be gone. I don't get it? where's the pride factor? here's another one, tell you're Soldiers this, the unit down the street thinks they are a bunch of pussies, and the word might get out that they are, that should lite a spark up their little @sses, lol.
    Congratulations Night, Welcome to the team and back into the game, different department, agency, the same game. You'll roll over your days and be golden. Welcome back to the continental breakfast highway, lol. - Del The S**t.

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    Put yourself in that Soldier's position... If he/she knows for a fact that they can be overweight and not pass an APFT and get away with it... Do you think they're going to care if you give them the "you need to fix yourself" speech. When I was a private, I was hard-headed... My team leader would tell me one time and one time only to fix something and if I didn't... There would be a counseling statement, a visit to the PSG and a good smoke session. And if that didn't work, he told me I'd be reduced in rank for patterns of misconduct and ultimately separated from the Army (within the counseling). Do you know why I took him seriously? Because my Commander made it a point to abide by all punitive articles within UCMJ. My Commander ensured Soldiers who did not meet weight standards and PT standards got das boot from the Army. It was my NCO Support Channel who ensured these Soldiers were recommended for such actions. This is HOW it is supposed to be IAW AR 600-20. That is how the Army functions. Officers asskick those who don't abide NCOs, who enforce the standards of the Army.

    Clearly your CO is not doing his/her job. Clearly your 1SG is not mentoring your CO. Clearly your PSG doesn't give a shit. It seems as though you are the only one who cares about the overall efficiency of your unit, and when push comes to shove; a good old use of the open door policy and maybe some advice from I.G. will set things straight. You must not be afraid to have candor, courage, commitment, compassion and competence as an NCO, because it is your leaders responsibilities to ensure this; and them not doing so is failing the organisation as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeEdge View Post
    Currently I am in the Army Reserves. Unfortunately, my unit lives up to the typical lower standards that seem to surround many National Guard and reserves units (lots of fat bodies, low drive and all around shit bags). In the past we (sergeants within the platoons) have recommended longtime PT failures for separation only to be turned back by our CO (We are constantly told it’s a numbers thing/ They’d rather keep their numbers up than push people out). Seems like in the reserves, the only tool we have are counseling statements and honestly that doesn’t get us anywhere. I feel like we NCOs have tried everything from bringing pressure down on them, to basically holding their hands to push them along. Does anyone have any ideas, tips, help on what more we can do?
    What is your position in the AR? Team leader? Squad leader? Section NCOIC? You have not mentioned about the guidance you have received from your Platoon and 1SG. What are they reinforcing down the chain?
    Iraq/Afghanistan Veteran (OIF V & OEF X & XIII)
    101st Airborne Division & 4th Infantry Division combat vet
    Serving overseas

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    Well the same goes with AD in regards to counselings to substantiate a separation after a certain time has elapsed. You cannot pick and choose the Soldiers that you lead but do you best to lead from the front and to get those Soldiers to perform to standard during drill.

    I know it is more of a challenge at times but once these Soldiers understand that you mean business and willing to help them be successful; will things improve.

    Good luck and happy holidays.
    Iraq/Afghanistan Veteran (OIF V & OEF X & XIII)
    101st Airborne Division & 4th Infantry Division combat vet
    Serving overseas

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    Well, when I was a SL in the Guard; if I had an issue with a Soldier (just had one); I will call them outside of drill days to see how they were doing. One had issues showing up at time, so I will call them at 0530 on the day of drill to ensure they were up to make it on time.
    Iraq/Afghanistan Veteran (OIF V & OEF X & XIII)
    101st Airborne Division & 4th Infantry Division combat vet
    Serving overseas

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